Nature vs. Nurture and some other stuff....
I don't know for sure what "turns" folks gay. I know that there's arguments that it's a biological factor, or that it's result of childhood conditioning, childhood trauma, childhood abuse, and / or that it's a behavioral issue of some kind. Fact is, I don't know for sure, and I don't think anybody really does for sure. I don't think that there's one single factor that you can point to and say "that's it".
I think that often times the Christians are the ones that seem to have the biggest problem with it. I'd like to remind my fellow Christians of a few things.
You can't hold anybody accountable to God's laws if they're not Christians. Non- Christians can drink, swear, gamble, and screw whomever they want whenever they want. They're not held accountable to our standards, folks. Are we held accountable;e to the Muslim's standards? Nope - because we're not Muslims, and I'll wager they think they're right, too. This principle applies in all things that are specific to the core beliefs of Christian Theology, too. I think most of the world isn't Christian (as we define it) and we ought to remember that we are called by God to be salt and light and show His love for everybody instead of trying to be His little judges. So, if you ever run into a gay non-christian, how about trying to show 'em a little of God's love for them first (Because guess what? God loves gay people!) instead of telling them they're going to hell for being gay?
And regarding that pastor Fred Phelps and his congregation of cronies (that crowd that protests at the funerals of soldiers killed in the line of duty and murdered gay man Matthew Shepherd holding the "God Hates Fags" signs).....you guys are just plain assholes hiding behind a Bible.
I know that there are organizations (largely Christian-based, I think) that are primarily concerned with "bringing gays home", for lack of a better term. If I understand correctly, their basic tenet is that God didn't create folks to be gay, and that with the proper coaching, counseling, and/or spiritual guidance, they can "convert" them back to being straight. I know that there are many success stories of people who have previously been gay and have either returned to heterosexuality or converted to heterosexuality, having never been "straight" in the first place.
Man - I don't know where I land on this.
As a recovering sex addict, I know that sexual behavior can be controlled. I know firsthand from my own experience that sexual impulses, habits, triggers, desires and thoughts can be controlled - even ones that are considered unusual, abnormal, unhealthy or even deviant by most folks - but only if there's no extra-curricular pathology (biological factors) at work.
See - I think overall I am (and always have been) a fairly "normal" guy. I haven't had that any kind of strong sexual draw towards other guys - I just never did. I guess God didn't make me that way.
Ah-HA! Now we're on to something. How did God make us - really?
Now - let's take a minute on this one.
Did God make me an addict? Hrm - yes, and no.
Yes - God had a plan for my life that involved me working through an addiction and going through recovery so that I could that story of My experiences with God to show His love, His kindness, and His mercy in my own life, and to bring that good news to others. I firmly believe that with all of my heart, both emotionally and intellectually.
No - God didn't make me an addict, meaning that God didn't give me a genetic predisposition that might lead to addiction. Or depression. God doesn't make deformed kids. God doesn't make children with Downs Syndrome, Autism, blindness, deafness, fistulas, port-wine birthmarks, or two sets of genitals.
Horseshit.
I have no fewer than five recovering addicts (including me) on my mom's side of the family, and I don't know how many cases of clinical depression. Genetically, that predisposition runs in the family, man. There's no getting around that. And I have a family history of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease, too. Did God make us that way? Are we created in His image in that way? Does God have Depression, Autism, or Cancer?
Nope.
I'm going to chalk this one up to the Fall, as in the Fall of Man from God's Original Intent. If you look at basic human anatomy, I think there's a very strong case that God's original intent was quite obviously not for us to function sexually as with members of the same sex. Gay folks can't physically procreate, and I'd say the vast majority of folks don't have gay tendencies.
I think that being gay falls under the same umbrella as most of the other things that we don't necessarily like but that we can't explain why.
Hurricanes. Tsunamis. Cancer. Depression. Retardation. Deformity. Addiction.
I don't think that God had any intent for this stuff to be around originally, man. But I think that once Man told God "I can do this without You" the world became a place filled with stuff that God didn't originally have in mind for us - stuff that would end up being beyond our control.
I don't think anybody can control where a Tsunami hits.
I don't think anybody can control who gets cancer.
I don't think anybody can control if they're genetically predisposed to be an addict.
And I don't think anybody can control whether or not they have a gay "bent".
I think more than anything we as Christians tend to focus on the behavior of Gays, hold it up against scripture, see it doesn't line up, and point the mean finger at 'em and tell 'em how wrong they are instead of focusing on the person inside the behavior and the love that God has for them.
And let's face it - it makes us feel good.
It lets us say "Well, at least I'm not doing that."
It lets us look up at God and say "See? Look at what I'm not doing."
It makes us feel better about ourselves, because we generally immediately assume that God's more pleased with us for what we're not doing rather than what we are doing. I know I learned that growing up in church, especially at church camp. Yet we forget that by God's standards, we've all blown it way beyond anything we can salvage on out own.
Moses
King David
Paul the Apostle
Martin Luther
Billy Graham
They all blew it, man. That's why we need God.
Anyway, my point here is that I honestly believe that a large portion of gay folks (perhaps the majority; the ones that have the genetic predisposition) have little or no control over how their minds naturally function, and what's attractive to them sexually. It's not that they're "diseased" in some way or mind-numbed robots (far from it) but that in the same regard that we "straight" folks have our laundry lists of predispositions that we were born with, they have them as well - they're just different from ours.
So imagine this, all you straight people. Take every molecule of sex drive you've ever had, and imagine that it's focused on the same gender, and it feels 100% completely natural to you, and that the thought of having sex with a member of the opposing gender is completely appalling to you - much like the though I'm sure most of you have about having sex with a member of the same gender.
Now- obviously this falls apart quite a bit if you believe that being gay is caused my nurture or a dominating mother or a gender confusion issue of some kind; which essentially asserts that you think it's how you're brought up or it's based on what happens to you. I think there's something that can be said for that, but I don't think you can counsel your way out of biology. I think trying to counsel your way out of a biological issue is like trying to talk you way out of cancer. And no - I'm not equating being gay with having cancer, so please don't think that.
OK - more tomorrow. My hands are tired.
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8 comments:
I do believe you are pretty much on target with this one!
It's cool to read how you thought through all this. And also the compassion you have for hurting and broken people. That's much more...cooler.
When you said, "I don't think you can counsel your way out of biology" I agree in that counseling does not change biology (although, actually, you can change synaptic pathways through behavior modification so even that's not cut and dry) but counseling can help us deal with what our biology deal us. As in cancer. I can't change my cancer but counseling can help me manage what is.
Whether God intended us to behave gay is a definite no. He made us male and female. Every act of homosexual behavior is condemned in the Bible. The behavior is what is sin - just like gossip or adultery or lying or ____.
Christians have done a very mean job of judging people and not their behavior. We are right to say, "That behavior is not what God wants us to do. It is wrong. Here is a better way" We are not to say, "That person is evil, God doesn't want them." That's God's job to say what is evil and our job to agree with Him.
The problem with being gay (behaving gay) is that our culture has said that it is not wrong and that it is even natural. Some animals are gay so it must be ok. Animals eat their own young too so, be careful there. Anyway. Our culture has made gay behavior equivalent to the core identity of the person; they have made behaving gay, 'being gay'. Even your title indicates that. And they negate our core identity as children of God in need of a savior.
Regardless the cause, we are to love people, gay or not, and help them walk with Christ and grow in grace. I would no more tell a husband to continue having affairs than I would tell a gay person to continue in that behavior because God loves them and wants them to walk with Him. And He knows that those behaviors erode our soul.
Anyway - I know you, Ian, of all people, will love folks where they are. Gay or not.
Also, our society has turned gay into a lifestyle. The bible doesn't talk about "being gay" anywhere, it talks about having sex with someone of the same gender. When we confuse the bible's truth with society's perception, we get all kinds of insane questions like, "is it wrong for a man to like Liza Minelli?" We need to make sure we let the bible set our perspective, not the world. Too often we allow the world to set the boundaries of an "appropriate" world view, and then we try to fit God into those boundaries.
Ian, no...this "lifestyle" is not a choice that folks make. Why would "I" choose to be gay when I know just how much Christians hate us for sinning like that? Why would I choose to be persecuted, hated and denied civil rights that are the same ones you recieve in this country? Why would I choose this "lifestyle" knowing that my family would hate me? Why,when I know I'd lose friends over it? Lifelong friends whom I've known since grade school?
No, I believe that God made me the way I am today. Hiding in the closet and doing nothing about my "gayness" was only hurting me and the fragmented relationships I was forced to have with those around me. Lying to my parents and family on a regular basis hurts. How could I live a double life, risk them finding out some other way - and then realize I had been lying the whole time - their minds would jump to the next question...what else has he been lying to us about.
Being "homosexual" or however some choose to call it is term that yes has negative connotations for me. You were right, I prefer the term "GAY", as it desribes me as someone who is HAPPY with my life the way it is. God made me this way and God truly does love me. I consider myself to be a GAY Christian. I have constant contact with God, my creator through prayer and churh services. I was brought up in a Mennonite Brethren church, as a child. I have also attended some great Southern Baptist Churches and feel my faith in God has grown stronger throughout my lifetime.
God loves me and has BIG plans for me...I work and give back to my community at large. Yes, I also give back to my GAY community as well. I work closely with guys who are struggling through this very arguement - does God love me, or not - am I an outcast that he wants nothing more to do with, now that I'm being honest with self and my GAY feelings? We cannot continue lying to ourselves, much less others.
Saying that, I'd also like to make one more comment that I hope everyone does understand. First, there are gays/lesbians in each of your lifes who hide their identity for fear of rejection. However, we all don't come out and FORCE our "lifestyle" on everyone. Yes, there are those exceptions where some guys/gals want to thrust their beliefs down your throat...but I would like to equivalate these folks to be ones who are like Fred Phelps, and others like him who take things to the extremes and become over zealous in their beliefs. I think each of youw would tend to agree with this point? Yes/No?
Okay, I'll end for now. Please think of me as your GAY brother/friend/uncle/son...as this is what I am.
Love ya Ian - always love catching up with you via your Blog!
PS-Hope your Thanksgiving went well and that you have a wonderful weekend to spend with your friends and family down there in Dallas!
Keep Smiling - Chuckles
cblong2002 - I hope you don't think I hate you. I most certainly don't. But I disagree with some of the things you are saying.
I'd like to go back to what Zach said and maybe make an analogy to maybe make a clear point.
"Too often we allow the world to set the boundaries of an "appropriate" world view, and then we try to fit God into those boundaries."
I believe that God loves gays as much as He loves everyone else = equally. If He does not than He is a liar and everything is crap. But He is not a liar so, He loves gay people. I do too. Because they are PEOPLE, gay or not.
The discussion comes down to where we get our standard of belief. If the Bible is the word of God and is authoritative (meaning I submit to what it teaches, no matter what) then I have some choices to make. I have to align how I view everything through the lens of scripture.
Having sex with any person outside of marriage is sin. So I can be straight and never get married and have sex with people and still be a Christian. God made me to desire women. I am attracted to women, people of the opposite sex. But God does not want me to have sex with anyone but my wife. If I never marry, I am never free to have sex. Like it or not, that's what the Lord wants. And He is fully within His rights to set whatever boundaries He chooses.
I can be gay and have sex with a person of the same sex and be a Christian. The question is not, "Can I be gay and be a Christian." The question is, "What boundaries has God allowed?"
If I never married, no one would tell me, "God made you this way. Go and have sex with women." That means I am not free to fulfill a desire God gave me. Does that make God unfair or mean? No. Urges, desires, do not make us who we are.
My urge to have sex with a woman who is not my wife is against God's desire. Although I do not, other men have urges to have sex with other men. Other men have urges to have sex with little children or animals.
Sex has no place in eternity. And yet we have defined who we are by our sexuality. We invest time in something that will not survive our dying breath. To define our identity as gay or straight is to nullify our unique and special place in God's creation as the only creatures made in His image. As such we are to exist forever. I am not straight. I am a son of God. Investing our identity in what will fade away is a great sadness.
When we take what God has taught us in the Bible and ignore it we tune out our only genuine source of help. I'm not saying the things are easy to accept. But I also cannot pick and choose what I take from the Bible. The same books in the Bible that condemn gay behavior tell us to love one another, to be patient and kind. Can I ignore those things as well?
Thanks, Chuck! I was really hoping you'd chime in. I value your input, man, and I was hoping we'd get some here from somebody who knows this territory firsthand.
For what it's worth, I know Zach & Brandon (my brother) personally. I can say from my heart that there's no animosity or hostility whatsoever. They'd sit down and have beer with you and give you a big ol' #4 hug afterwards in heartbeat- just like I would!
I hope you had a great Thanksgiving too :-)
What's a #4 hug? It's not like a #2 hug, is it? I'm all for hugging! Just so we all know what the numbers mean.
#4 is a (very good) Pathways thing, so I'm not allowed to explain :-)
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